Author Topic: Issues and suggestions V23 alpha  (Read 3559 times)

Issues and suggestions V23 alpha
« on: January 12, 2018, 11:46:25 AM »
So I finally received a key to play the alpha.  these are my thoughts after about 20 hours of play through .  I apologize if some of this is repeated elsewhere or on the private forums, which I do not have access to.  I'm not including things obvious to an alpha, such as the markers for unfinished graphics

Bugs / Crashes
- entering another clan's control space crashes game
- attempting to conduct diplomacy crashes game
- clicking pack/unpack too quickly on camp sometimes crashes game
- moving camp through wooded areas and quickly clicking "unpack" creates frame loss and crash sometimes
- I cannot engage in training someone for fishing.  with the training and 20 wood, it shows as blanked out.  I have tried having it within my control area while doing this
- Enemy clans do absolutely nothing.  they don't attack, mine resources, or move about the map. 
- attacking an enemy camp causes a crash
- having too many saved games (ive had up to 171) sometimes  causes a crash.  Game runs cleaner with fewer saves
- play Europe map crashes game

Imbalances / areas to clean up
- higher skilled trades need more benefits - for example, a blacksmith makes 1 tool for 1 iron.  a toolsmith makes 4 tools for 4 iron.  The toolsmith should be more efficient, such as making 6 tools with 4 iron. 
- Caravans do not sell food.  why not?
- need more hot keys to move between screens without clicking so much
- early game oil is super hard to get.  I have not had a game yet where I even found the resource (played up to 171 turns).  This makes healing extremely difficult
- Regarding healing, I think it's unnecessarily hard to heal a character with the resource requirements.  There should be a doctor/healer trade that can handle the job
  automatically for all characters within the control area.
- Cloth and parchment are super hard to get too.  I have only been able to maintain these resources via caravan trades.
- Tinkerers are too expensive to operate.  1 tools per turn severely restricts me on maps with limited resources.  15 turns/training is a very high alternative
- Clan recruitment.  the first 14 go by real quick.  the next 6 ok, but that's if you can get your hands on 5 cloth.  After 20, it really becomes a chore to get people unless you have the resources to bring on a Bard.  Depending on the map, alcohol can be a real challenge.  I have not tried using a feast master as of yet
- I don't really understand the whole meat thing.  When I have a hunter working on a herd, all I see is food +/-.  There is no supply for "meat."  When I put a rancher on the same herd, I get a stock pile of animals (cows, pigs, etc) but they show as a resource, not "meat"  I get that there are butchers and some mechanics to make that whole thing work, but I never seem to have a stockpile of animals and a subsequent butcher available due to the constant lack of food available on the map.  by the time I have a "lord of the hunt," usually the herds that were nearby are used up just to survive.
- stone blocks has been another real point of contention.  Due to the very high cost of building (20 wood for farms, etc), it's real hard to have excess wood to make coal.  I have found that coal mines are rare and, if you find one, usually the cost of having it is outweighed by the loss of not having an iron mine.
- Traders should offer more benefits.  8 gold / 20 gold per turn is good, but there should be access to a greater market.  perhaps, via a trader, we could get more preferred pricing (buy/sell) than offered by the standard caravan
- wood access.  the cost of "woodworks" is too expensive. as explained earlier, it's hard to get stone blocks going and the cost of 20 has been too hard for me to achieve so far when you consider finding a stone quarry (rare), training up stone cutters, tools (need iron also) and then 20 turns to make the product.  It seems to be way more efficient to have a wood bundler and 2 wood collectors, rather than a logger (can generate 9.5 wood/turn during the spring/summer)
- boards again another real challenge.  the 20 wood to continually build all these work camps make it hard to stockpile for board production, and that's if you have free recruits to train up a woodspitter.  I have been into that 20+ clans situation when I get to woodsplitters and I usually do not have a free hand to do it
- wool the biggest issue I have with cloth is the lack of reasonable access.  Since early game you have to use any herds available for meat, if you find a herd of sheep (also rare) you cannot afford to take advantage of it. 
- to relieve the wool issue, I think that an early game unit should be a scavenger.  This would be a character that could generate a small, but sustainable amount of food from resources on forest, brush and stream squares.  this could include fruit and fish
 - along with that, when my character (say a gatherer or farmer) is upgraded to get +2 fruit, where does that fruit go?  it does not show up as a resource, however, there is an animation for +2 fruit.  I don't notice any increase in my + food either

here are some things I discovered through repetition and failure that really improved my quality of life in the game, but were not particularly obvious to me . 


- Workshops maintain their own area of control.  you can move the camp without losing those resources.  The point of confusion I had was that one of the first things I did in game one ws capture a farm.  the farm gave no resources and no control areas, however, I was able to abandon the farm and keep the farmer
- to add to above, make a hunter right away and  go find neutral farms/logging camps.  abandon the camps and you get free workers
- the base update of each skill allows for a 2 point immediate upgrade to a clan.  you have to hit the exclamation point and then pick a character
- keep clans with +morale in the camp.  make them in house trades like blacksmith.  This greatly reduces fighting if you have a couple of them
- you have to keep track of the tickerer.  It takes 1 tool per turn, so if you train him, you will have to upgrade your blacksmith or else you will show as 0 in your tools/turn
- buy 5 cloth at the first or second caravan.  sell whatever to get it if you don't upgrade from 14 to 20 clans, you will quickly hit your cap and lose growth
- cash is king.  Re-roll if you have to, but get a  gold mine or trader asap.  the only way to survive and get the impossible resources you need, like cloth, is to buy it
- Ranchers create horses, pigs, etc in your inventory, but once you hit 10 that's it.  you have to dispose of those animals prior to demo of the facility.  However, the ranch will not time out if you leave it be.  The problem is that ranches do not create resources past 10.  If you have something like horses that you'd like to save, well the price for those horses is a rancher that does nothing for you.  If you demo the ranch, you lose the horses.
- clans do not pick optimal paths of movement.  don't select more than 2 squares ahead of them or else they may end up going around a lake instead of through the woods

« Last Edit: January 25, 2018, 09:37:50 AM by clayffo »

Re: Issues and suggestions V23 alpha
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2018, 04:11:31 PM »
Excellent points, most of these. Previous build was more stable to me. Diplo even worked kinda.
Fishing I had no problem training for.

Re: Issues and suggestions V23 alpha
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2018, 11:51:38 AM »
so I've finally been able to get a few games above 150 turns .  Most of the time I have critical failures that permanently end the games much earlier.  based on these 3 games, I have noticed a couple significant problems.

1.  all 3 games have ended in famine.  Food does not effectively scale when you get clan totals of 22+.  the RNG nature of resources has lead to large sections of the map with no resources .  The upgrades for resource improvement are too expensive and by the time you have them, the resources are gone.  (i.e. no more herds nearby the forage once you get the "lord of the hunt." or the " meat cutter"
2.  Ranchers seem broken for a couple reasons.  1.  the rancher immediately sets up and gives me 10 of the resource (say cattle) then the rancher does jack squat until the foraging or meat cutting is complete.  The rancher should progressively add cattle to the tally (say +1 ea turn) for a while like a mine.  Secondly, if you have horses, you have to spend horses on non food / cloth upgrades, such as the trader.  2.  The upgrade for "overseer of the range" should not require a separate person from the rancher.  The rancher should receive an upgrade opportunity as the rancher doesn't do anything once the ranch is set up.
3.  Once you get past 100 turns, the team tends to get really spread out.  it hasn't been uncommon that I've had mines/loggers that were 20+ squares away from my main camp since the food resources required a lot of traveling to get to.  There should be a way to maintain closer ties with the team.  I feel that there should be a phase 1 version of "start a kingdom" that allows you to gain a larger control territory and automatically farm resources off the squares (like civ 5) without having to create special camps. 
4.  I have some  concerns that once the enemy clans get enabled, the game will be extremely hard to succeed at unless you get a great RNG roll.  I am not training any soldiers at all and I cannot stay alive.  I don't know how I could defend resources at this time and still gain resources if I had 2-3 soldiers.  I don't know how I could keep the soldiers health up, even when trained, since the cost of healing is way too expensive
5.  There should be a way to fire or re-roll a new clan. some of the clans that are forced on you are completely useless or just bad for the team.  I have had clans that were lazy, did not want to do any trade work and had a quadruple multiplier on fighting with other clans. 
6.  There should be a way to set up a recruiting center / training center to improve the quality of clans.  THis work camp would improve the speed of recruiting and allow you to change traits (similar to darkest dungeon)
7.  I think that each clan should be a bonus starting resource or trait that allows the player to get off to a good start.  For example, the huns,  being fighters by nature, would start off with horsemen who could immediately go out and raid other clans.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2018, 02:03:46 PM by clayffo »

Re: Issues and suggestions V23 alpha
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2018, 10:02:49 AM »
I played a map today;  good resources, lots of mines, plants, and a few farms to cap.  I was able to create 2 V2 mines, including a  gold mine, an apiary plantation, stone block production via a coal mine, and cloth production via flax.  Unfortunately, at turn 85 the game had a complete melt down that ended in me having to re-install the game. 

However, my primary take away from that game was, again, food.  Despite my great wealth and resources, at turn 85 I had 4 food with -1 food per turn going into winter.  I had explored an area of approx. 40x40 squares in all directions from my starting position and there were no food options.  The map was surprising short on herds and fish; I could not find any and I ended up retraining my hunter as a watchman since he was not doing anything to help me.

really my only choice at that point would have been to hopefully buy any animals the caravan had and to use the meat cutter.  I had the cash to do so, but this would have been a stop gap measure that would not have solved my key problem.  Had a found a food resource even farther into the frontier, it would have taken until the next winter to move my operation and I may not have survived that trip.

doing a somewhat cursory search into Germanic peoples of the Roman era, it was pointed out that tribes like the Mongols and Suevi lived primary off of animal based products; meats and milks.  They primary sources of these were a combination of home grown herds and hunting for game.

With this said, I would have 2 possible suggestions.   
1.  Ranchers would have a second tier skill called animal husbandry.  This would allow the Rancher to continuously produce more of the captured herd.  The overseer of the herd skill could enhance to quantity of herd production from +1 / turn to +3 / turn, similar to the weapons skills
- additionally, create an upgrade to ranchers for milk production as both an asset and a food stopgap should you run out of food
2.  allow squares with forest to have a set quantity of "game."  The hunter could use the forage skill to hunt that game.  The huntsman and lord of the hunt skills would enhance the hunters +food / turn.


Re: Issues and suggestions V23 alpha
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2018, 10:04:07 PM »
Where are all the sources of this learning come from?

Re: Issues and suggestions V23 alpha
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2018, 11:12:34 AM »
more suggestions:
1.  hot keys for reporting:  there should be a way to have brief but useful reports that can be moved around the screen and hidden/shown with a hot key.  Some useful reports would be 
- potential conflict report between tribes
- activity report (who's working, not working, active, waiting for a task, etc)
- turns to exhaustion of resources being worked
- mini map with color indicators of resources, land marks, camps, enemies, etc)
- expanded notes report.  I think it would be nice to have a report that not only allows you to pencil in who should do what, but also what activities you need to do
Perhaps a standard set of tasks could be created and be customizable with the ability to strike through completed tasks.
- health and well being report per tribe (for example someone's in the wilderness and has less than 50% health)
- available resources that are not being exploited
- list of available buildings that you have the resources and available staff to build
- current relationship with each known AI

2.  Improved automation:  As more tribes get recruited, the amount of tedious and repetitive clicking becomes annoying. 
- passive until attacked or a critical decision must be made (like civ 5/6).  If I have someone picking berries and the square becomes "cold" I want to be able to have that tribe camp in place for the winter and resume picking as available without having to click them passive every turn
- auto explore (same as civ 5/6).  This feature should include an option to set passive the explorer during the winter to avoid dying
- Survey a designated area automatically - should be able to select a grid of squares and assign the  surveyor to identify all
- select at least 3 or more skills to train and prioritize training (for example I want to learn woodcutter, then surveyor, then hunter)
- optional tutorial talking bubble for each tribe with recommended actions

3.  character development:  I mentioned this some in a past post, but it is tedious and frustrating that tribes can only excel at one skill. 
- The first item is that someone trained in a higher skill should have all lower skills automatically available (such as a miner should also be a digger)
- There should be an option for a secondary skill with the ability to field upgrade that skill.  If I have a miner that is 20 squares of forest from my main camp and that mine expires, I now have a tribe that can do nothing for 4-5 turns or an entire winter.  you can't go to the next mine and start it up because there has to be an area of influence in place.
- There should be a way to train and improve the efficiency of skills through experience and not just buying expensive upgrades.  As I've said in previous posts, as the tribe grows, the productivity of the tribe declines.  This is due to many factors, including expensive training costs, lack of resources on the map (RNG at it's finest), tribe is too spread out (too much walking time between jobs),constantly having to retrain due to a lack of relevant resources available, and conflicts between  tribe members requiring someone to be removed .

4.  finally, there should be a way to get rid of bad tribes.  Fire them, kill them, send them to the mines, whatever.

Re: Issues and suggestions V23 alpha
« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2018, 04:36:11 PM »
I played a bit of 23.2 and here are some more ideas.  I'm going to leave the "raging barbarians" aside as I think we all know it's not balanced

The basic idea behind nomadic tribes of this era was that they would pick a spot typically grasslands surrounded by forest and near fresh water.  The main camp was set up as a semi permanent structure for at least 1 year, maybe more depending on the land and local politics.  Herds and farmland were established surrounding the campsite.  Local resources were exploited, such as game, wood, and iron.  It was typical that herds would be used for multiple functions, such as meat, milk, furs, clothing, tools and finished goods, such as the use of wool to create rugs and clothing.  Trading was a big part of this as it created a way to get products not locally available and allowed for the transfer of knowledge and culture. 

The way this game plays, the main camp is really just like a settler that allows for the establishment of camps.  There is no real feeling of a "tribe" when you have  camps that are 10+ squares from one another.  With that said, the recruits you get don't seem to have any level of commitment to a "one tribe" mentality. 

Here are some suggestions:
-  the stone for permanent structures is really not a good mechanic.  Stone is damn near impossible to get unless you trade.  Structures like farms and mines should last a good long time on their own and should be upgradeable to the stone structures in the future.  this would allow for longer term use and a bonus to production
-  allow for the development of common squares around the area of influence .  These squares will not have the same productivity as named resource squares, but will be upgradeable and sustainable for 1 or more years.  Allowing for this development from the onset of the game will create greater responsibility to pick good spots and commit to them
- require camp locations to be permanent for a minimum of 1 full year
- allow for empty squares to be cultivated (by appropriate trades) for future development (ie. create forests, grazing lands, herds, etc)
- allow for watchmen to build defensive structures (watchtowers) for a more reasonable cost.  20 wood is too expensive.  I would say 5 wood max as you will need at least 4 of them. 
- a big missed opportunity is with the waterways.  I have yet in 20 games to even do fishing much less anything else.  establishing at the head of a river and body of water should have a set of benefits that offset the loss of land other than just setting up a trader. 
   - establish more profitable over water trading routes
   - ship yard
   - fisheries

 The way the game plays, each recruit you have has a variety of traits and skills; they interact with each other.  therefore, I think that they should contribute more and have more individual value:
- - right now tribe recruits are essentially the workers.  They should be leaders of their own workers
        - Create a tech tree for each tribe leader and allow for the automation of their minions to create and develop around the resource captured.
        -  use skills to uniquely develop resources and extend their viability
        - Create the ability to gain multiple uses out of a resource (such as cows for meat, hides, milk, parchment)
                   - build roads and infrastructure necessary
       - create a way to integrate individuals into the core "tribe" system over the course of time or a rewards system (such as a title)

Trading - the current system just sucks.  The sell prices are undercut and the buy prices are over priced.  it also makes no sense to have an anonymous trader that only offers some goods and only comes by once every 5 turns.  There should be regular trading during spring, summer, and declining in fall.  very little in winter
- being able to trade with other factions and "neutral" factions is key to trade, technology and culture.  there should be a trader sub category for establishing trade routes with other tribes.  If you establish a trading facility, you should be able to train and supply caravans
- base trade would be gold only as an enhancer to the existing facility.  any goods you add to your trade caravan shall be offered in trade or gold based on each stop of the caravan.  Goods of no value to anyone will simply return to you as "unsold" I hate the idea of cheesing the NPC into buying 200 wood they don't need just because of a mechanic that forces the sale

The next is bandits.  if you destroy a bandit camp, which takes at least 2 bowmen, you receive an incidental reward, not even as good as a ruin.  worse, you most likely won't have the oil needed to heal those bowmen, so they are of diminished value later on.   a bandit camp should yield (1) recruiting opportunities (2) use of their camp as a defensive outpost, (3) any workers they captured previously (4) some gold and other materials.






Re: Issues and suggestions V23 alpha
« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2018, 11:51:27 AM »
At this point the game is no longer playable because every game crashes in 50-75 turns and I cannot recover it. it's too frustrating to constantly start over, especially when I have a good roll.  Here are some thoughts

-  the resources are pretty good now.  some things are too expensive still such as fortify costs, sledge upgrades (logging), healing, etc.
- stone block costs for V2 resources are still too expensive.  I think that 10 blocks would be more fair
- upgrading bowman weapons is a bit too expensive.  can't really do early game
-  I primarily use bowman because spearman and calvary are too expensive for early game.   It requires 3 bowmen to be effective, which is pretty resource intensive, unless you find neutral camps to raid for workers
-  fishing still does not work for me at all. I  train the skill, have zone of control, but my guy won't go on the water.  right click does no action on that square
- upgraded blacksmiths/weaponsmiths should provide a benefit.  I would recommend 6 return for 4 iron.
- Fortify camps is a good way to create the early game expanded territory.  I think it's somewhat fair cost wise overall
- I think that disguising the hunter as a bandit is a great idea and works well.  However, there needs to be a prompt so if you click on one of your resources, you won't automatically attack your own people/camps
- farms are really not that good right now.  even if you upgrade them, they don't produce that well.  berry picking is the way to  go, especially with the upgrade. I think that upgrading the farming production should be modified from +2 wheat to +4 wheat
-  there should be a pop up note regarding besieging.  you wouldn't know if you didn't pay attention, but if you besiege in the winter and the square your on is red on resources, your guys lose health.  you have to encamp during the winter and besiege when the squares are not cold.  There should also be a counter for how many days to complete a besiege depending on the number of bandits in the camp

Re: Issues and suggestions V23 alpha
« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2018, 02:32:15 PM »
I started up a game that had previously crashed and made it to turn 202.  I had a kingdom and got quite a ways in.  I can see some of the broader issues now.

1.  I don't know what the design intent is, but the way the game plays right now, it is a long play through.  at turn 200 I was nowhere near ready to attack anybody except bandits.  This play though could potentially exceed 500 turns, which is a multiple day deal for me.  Here are some of the items that slow the game down

-  it takes time and expensive resources to build up an early military.  I have gone with 2 bowmen and 1 spearman as my primary force against bandits.  However, investing in these resources takes a lot of turns.  Once players are active, this will only slow the game pace down more.  Bandits tend to spawn on all sides of you and often times very close. 
-  as the tribe grows and gets to 15+, food and resources become insufficient.  I have to stop progressing and invest time and money into wine and 2nd tier skills in order to upgrade my camps.  The 20 stone thing for permanent camps really drags the game out as I always have to wait for 4 caravans to buy enough stone
- The stone cutter only does 1 stone per turn.   The next upgrade for stonecutter takes a lot of time to get and seems a bit overkill, so you're stuck waiting on caravans and +1 stone
-  the coal mine caps out at +4  coal per turn without apprentices.  It should be set up to receive the same upgrades as farms and loggers.  5 horses for a significant upgrade to production.  +4 coal doesn't cut it once you get into mid game.  Yes you can make  coal with wood, but you are consuming more workers to do that, which has it's set of issues as well
-  mid tier fame is a real big deal because otherwise it can take 25 turns for a new recruit.  It is challenging to maintain a military, upgrade food resources, and develop +5 wine /  turn to maintain the high fame.  The challenge is good but it slows the game down. 
-  tribes should have an upgradeable skills tree.  They do not scale with the growth of the tribe.  yes they upgrade levels, but that is only so they can do high level skills.  There should be a way to further improve their productivity so it scales with your tribe size
-  Starting a kingdom doesn't feel like it has any real benefit.  Yes you get more control area and some resources, but it's really not what it was advertised to be.   My play style does not change at all.  Kingdoms should allow for some real benefits such as these suggestions:
          1.  Development and improvement of common map squares (see suggestions earlier in this thread)
          2.  Option to build walls and defensive towers that can damage enemies with range
          3.  Slow down enemy movement in your area of control
          4.  cultural and social influence to spread to nearby bandit camps and other players
          5.  ability to recruit bandits after their defeat
          6.  ability to upgrade your camp to a castle and upgrade fame
          7.  Improved and additional buildings with the castle such as training grounds, grazing areas (production of more animals based on your existing pastures), local farming (+food), and special / cultural world wonder type buildings. 
                  - new building types could be constructed by adding a builder to the  crafting skills



« Last Edit: April 04, 2018, 12:18:29 PM by clayffo »

Re: Issues and suggestions V23 alpha
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2018, 02:51:00 PM »
At this point the game is no longer playable because every game crashes in 50-75 turns and I cannot recover it. it's too frustrating to constantly start over, especially when I have a good roll.  Here are some thoughts

-  the resources are pretty good now.  some things are too expensive still such as fortify costs, sledge upgrades (logging), healing, etc.
- stone block costs for V2 resources are still too expensive.  I think that 10 blocks would be more fair
- upgrading bowman weapons is a bit too expensive.  can't really do early game
-  I primarily use bowman because spearman and calvary are too expensive for early game.   It requires 3 bowmen to be effective, which is pretty resource intensive, unless you find neutral camps to raid for workers
-  fishing still does not work for me at all. I  train the skill, have zone of control, but my guy won't go on the water.  right click does no action on that square
- upgraded blacksmiths/weaponsmiths should provide a benefit.  I would recommend 6 return for 4 iron.
- Fortify camps is a good way to create the early game expanded territory.  I think it's somewhat fair cost wise overall
- I think that disguising the hunter as a bandit is a great idea and works well.  However, there needs to be a prompt so if you click on one of your resources, you won't automatically attack your own people/camps
- farms are really not that good right now.  even if you upgrade them, they don't produce that well.  berry picking is the way to  go, especially with the upgrade. I think that upgrading the farming production should be modified from +2 wheat to +4 wheat
-  there should be a pop up note regarding besieging.  you wouldn't know if you didn't pay attention, but if you besiege in the winter and the square your on is red on resources, your guys lose health.  you have to encamp during the winter and besiege when the squares are not cold.  There should also be a counter for how many days to complete a besiege depending on the number of bandits in the camp

I think resources relative to cost of various professions/constructions is fair, perhaps even a bit generous. Getting loggers boosted by either the sharpener or sledge driver, for example, ends any wood worries for a long time and leaves you with a plentiful trade item if needed (of course it is cheap but I am usually making so much I can sell 50-100 to get something like cloth or oil). I usually wait until I have a spearman or two before going for Bandit camps; if I am not able to take them out first time and need to heal the spearman, it isn't usually a problem because by that stage of the game I usually have a strong enough economy to either be producing cloth or oil myself or simply have enough money to buy 10 of each from caravans with ease. Varies depending on if I have found a lot of resources and what clan attributes are, but usually not a problem. I don't have problems with fishing either, not sure what the difficulty you are running into could be- I think I always click on the fishing boat (perhaps the first selected thing will be the camp, just click again to cycle to the fishing boat) and move with the numeric keypad onto the water. I think you have a good idea for besieging though.
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Re: Issues and suggestions V23 alpha
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2018, 08:11:51 PM »


. I don't have problems with fishing either, not sure what the difficulty you are running into could be- I think I always click on the fishing boat (perhaps the first selected thing will be the camp, just click again to cycle to the fishing boat) and move with the numeric keypad onto the water. I think you have a good idea for besieging though.

The thing about fishing is that I learn the skill and then the skill is always greyed out.  I can have multiple livestock guys at level 8 and none of them will train the skill.  Oddly enough, I can train a trawler to improve fishing, but I cannot train a tribe to do it.

Re: Issues and suggestions V23 alpha
« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2018, 06:47:32 PM »
I played through 371 turns on the group map over the last week and here are some comments:

1.  certain resources can be scaled up very quickly such as gold, grapes, barley, food, iron, and preserves.  However, some items don't allow for upgrades to accelerate production, which hampers growth.  These are items such as stone, stone blocks, alcohol, oil, all animals, and anything steel related.  I have found it very challenging to move from the 2nd tier to the top tier of upgrades due to requirements for steel, steel tools, weapons, and armor. 
     -  there are curious inconsistencies in the professions chart that affect upgrades.  For example, there is a smelter to improve performance of iron mines, but the same upgrade does not apply to other mines like stone, peat, salt, and coal.  Additionally, there should be sledge driver upgrades for mines, not just loggers.  When you get to the 2nd tier of stonemasons, it becomes very challenging to meet the requirements when I am currently producing 8 stone per turn, but stonemason requires 30 stone per  turn.
     -  Stone blocks.  the base stone block profession of stone cutters is 1 stone for 1 stone block.  However, the 2nd tier upgrade of stone mason requires 30 stone for 10 blocks per turn.  This is no good as it serves as a penalty for upgrading, as well as slowing down growth
     -  Steelsmith is a similar inconsistency that penalizes the player.  Not only is the cost ridiculous (10 iron/10 coal for 1 steel block), but the tier 2 seems unattainable at 40 iron/coal per 4 steel.  Currently I am producing 19 iron and 10 coal / turn.
     -  I have mentioned this prior in this thread, but I do not know how to use "overseer of the range."  the option to train someone in it does not exist.  All I can think of is that learning it allows for V2 ranches to be built.  Additionally, there is no way to upgrade the ranch so it can produce additional animals on a turn by turn basis.  This is very unfortunate and does not make any kind of sense.  Animal husbandry would normally occur on a ranch
    -   There should be an upgrade from spearmen to heavy spearmen.  The jump from spearmen to men at arms is excessive and quite unattainable until very late game.

2.  Clans and families.  I don't really see the trade off between family size increases and any tangible benefit.  Families cost more food as they grow, but the subsequent  Clan does not appear to improve it's productivity.  If it does, there are no notes about it.  The wiki mentions that you have to keep up with family growth (more hungry mouths to feed) but does not offer a way to counter this affect.  Additionally, the game does not allow you to fire / kill a clan, so if you recruit an unproductive/unhelpful clan, you are stuck with the food bill

3.  Supply depots  - I found this unit to be odd (not talking about the lack of graphics).  So you have to settle this unit in your territory, which subsequently gives you more territory, but does not maximize the affect like a watchtower does.  then you bring you units onto the square and "merge armies" which creates a little set of tents on your unit.  Seems good as now your troops should be able to move without critical supply issues.  HOWEVER, this is not a true statement.  I moved an army of 6 units with a supply depot about 20 squares off my farthest watchtower.  They are current showing a status of supply critical, and have dropped in health from 100% to 76%

4.  level cap - I find it frustrating and very limiting to set the level cap at 10.  I had capped out many of my units prior to turn 200, which ended any real incentive to further improve them.

5.  skills cap -  There is clearly a hole here in the design of professions.  it is quite easy, by turn 200, to get all of the 2nd tier skills.  However, the tier 3 skills are a real bitch to train.  They all require steel tools/weapons which are very hard and very expensive to get.  again, there is a gap between tier 2 and tier 3

6.   The trading system is just broken.  The quantities and variety of goods only change I would say every 100 turns.  THis is no good as you can't get things you need, like animals (not counting horses), salt, and preserves, but you can get stuff you don't need every 5 turns, like iron and wood. 

7.  progression and rewards  -  I see now the core problem with this game.  a game like this, like Civ 5, has to have progressions that create a sense of progress and accomplishment.  Once you get to turn 200, you have permanent facilities, kingdom, and have dominated your neighbors, well, the game falls flat.  It becomes a somewhat boring exercise in materials management, including a complex matrix of upgrades that required me to write down notes.  I had to continuous modify clans to ensure I upgraded various new facilities.  For example, I build a new mine, lets say something exotic like salt at turn 200.  I now must go back and train a Nailsmith in order to upgrade the mine; then retrain my guy again back to whatever he was doing prior.  Then I have to train a guildmaster, add apprenticeship slots, and then retrain that guy back to whatever honor profession he was doing.  THEN I have to remember to train the next clan as a miner and send them to the mine as an apprentice.  ugh, and then when you get multiple apprentices, guess what?  you have to upgrade each apprentice as well
   -   The point I'm trying to make is the game is boring after turn 200.  You cannot use the civ 5 formula of technology because the game is specifically local to the region and general time frame (900-1200 A.D.) 
    -  The way this game played out,  I cannot see how a diplomacy system is going to fix this issue.  Quite honestly, I wrecked the avars and Attila in a big hurry and have developments all around them.  I cannot see giving up some of the choice resources such as the olives and grapes near Attila for friendship's sake. 
    -  The second phase of this game (declare a kingdom), in my opinion, should focus on development of a kingdom.  This should include a new set of buildings / upgrades , a skill tree system for clans, apprenticeship upgrades for "families" and access to a more extensive and diverse set of items to trade.  It should also include a great deal more direct contact, conversation, and attacks from the Romans.
     - perhaps an idea would be to amend the professions tree with additional specializations as a bonus for upgrading to kingdom.
    -  additionally, there should be the influences of culture, military and economic dominance.  borders should be able to grow automatically and there should be abilities to recruit bandits and other tribes to yours, including the capture and integration of opposing clans.

I have attached a few pictures of my progress.  I have also attached my game file should anyone want to take a closer look
     
« Last Edit: April 20, 2018, 10:19:40 AM by clayffo »

Re: Issues and suggestions V23 alpha
« Reply #12 on: April 24, 2018, 07:11:01 PM »
Watchtowers -  looking at the game, the romans and the bandits have fortresses, but we do not.  I think it would be nice if watchtowers could be upgraded to fortresses, including bonuses to control area, a defensive attack ability, and an ability to retrain the watchman as a soldier to defend the fortress.  once upgraded, the fortress would be a permanent structure and the watchman lost if demoed. 

3rd tier permanent structures  - we have 3rd tier skills, but not 3rd tier production for them.  as noted above in previous comments, once you get to end game, certain materials like coal, stone, and iron cannot be produced in great enough quantities to meet demand.  You will notice from my pictures that there is a fair discrepancy between grapes and steel tools production.  (this is not the only example).  I would like to see an upgrade option to increase production.  This could be either through materials upgrade or additional profession skills.

You will also note from my game, if you download it, that most of the 3rd tier skills and none of the 4th tier skills are trained.  According the jon, the game was designed around a goal of 300 turns.  I am at 375 and have neither the army nor the materials to play end game.  Additionally, I need 640 cloth to upgrade my clan capacity.  This is a tremendous amount of cloth considering there is no good way to produce huge amounts of cloth.  I lack the people to train more fame skills to get more people (currently 16 turns for the next) and I lack more people needed to attack the romans, including building additional watchmen and supply depots to extend north enough to get to the romans. 






Re: Issues and suggestions V23 alpha
« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2018, 08:52:57 AM »

Hi,

I'm a (professional) chess player who's played a lot of Civ and more recently Galciv but am new to AtG.

I got a key for the Alpha a couple of weeks ago but haven't yet had a reply to get onto  the alpha testing group. I've played the early opening a number of times and even once got to a kingdom before food became a big issue but at the moment am somewhat clueless.

I'm very impressed by your download and the expansion you've achieved and have some fairly baby questions which I hope are appropriate here and you or others may answer.

So in the very early opening I guess you need:

food gatherers or reapers first depending on what's nearby
wood
exploration/surveyors
metal

I presume that food is #1 and of course it depends on the specific position what comes next (if lots of nearby abandoned farms or lots of unidentified plants/metals then explorers/ surveyors quickly) but was wondering what order people generally train these?

Once you're mildly set up, you clearly need multipliers of different sorts to expedite progress.

bards
loggers
metal workers blacksmiths or weapon smiths? 
bods to transform food into alcohol or wood into different things.
research expediters starting with loremakers


I'm probably missing a lot out but have people got favourite move orders yet?

Some other general questions

What do you do during the winter a lot of Ctrl E?

How do you manage to feed your bods once you get past about 20 clans?

I'm guessing that I'm not stressing food multipliers enough.

Anyway, I think that's enough for the moment.

Many thanks,

Cheers,

Jon


Re: Issues and suggestions V23 alpha
« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2018, 11:25:45 AM »
hi jon speelman,

Here are some responses that are based solely on my opinions.

I'm very impressed by your download and the expansion you've achieved and have some fairly baby questions which I hope are appropriate here and you or others may answer.

So in the very early opening I guess you need:

food – gatherers or reapers first depending on what's nearby
wood
exploration/surveyors
metal

I presume that food is #1 and of course it depends on the specific position what comes next (if lots of nearby abandoned farms or lots of unidentified plants/metals then explorers/ surveyors quickly) but was wondering what order people generally train these?

- I always get a gatherer within the 1st 4 clans.  You start with 7 food, which means 7 turns and you're in famine.  If you can get a gatherer on berries within the first 5 turns, you can get your food up to about 15, which is adequate to survive the first winter.
     -next I always start with a wood collector, get about 40 wood, then convert him to a logger.  This gives me the opportunity to build a mine and farm quickly.
    -  the rest are really a matter of how the RNG comes out.  try to match up traits / preexisting skills to the appropriate tasks since early game it's too time consuming to retrain or force a task (for example, don't put someone that refuses to camp or fight as a bowman).  This means that I have to be somewhat creative in how I get my resources.

This is a resource management / strategy game, so utilization of intelligence and research matters.  I always play about 30 turns, get a lay of the land, then reset with a strategy.


Once you're mildly set up, you clearly need multipliers of different sorts to expedite progress.

bards
loggers
metal workers – blacksmiths or weapon smiths? 
bods to transform food into alcohol or wood into different things.
research expediters starting with loremakers

- the key to this game is gold.  many of the items you need early on (cloth, weapons, tools, horses) are not readily available to you.  I do a modest circle around my immediate territory with an explorer, then convert him to a trader as soon as possible.  I also make sure to get bowmen (at least 2) right away and do some pillaging and bandit killing for quick cash.

 - I use my second discovery guy to rotate between bards and lorekeepers.  early game I use the bard when I can afford alcohol and then switch him over when I'm out
 - blacksmith / weapon smith the same thing.  Rotate between the trades as needed. 



I'm probably missing a lot out but have people got favourite move orders yet?

- depends on the roll.  don't fight the roll or you'll end up with a lot of disappointment when people are fighting and / or refusing to work.

Some other general questions

What do you do during the winter – a lot of Ctrl E?

 - structures like mines and logging camps work through winter.  berry collectors also work winters, but at a lower production rate.  Other people, like hunters, explorers, and wood collectors have to rotate between camping and working to maintain at least yellow supplies.


How do you manage to feed your bods once you get past about 20 clans?

- I personally make it a point to get 20 stone blocks as soon as I can by buying them from the caravan (this goes back to the cash comment above).  a permanent farm with 2 apprentices and a baker go a long way to satisfying that goal. 

also, we have moved onto a new play test game.  I have not had a chance to play it as of yet.  It is attached to this post for your use.